Andrew Saunders (0:4.194)
that's not going to play. That's great.
Andrew Saunders (0:10.602)
It's not playing our intro. All right, we might have to, ⁓ forgo the intro this time. What is happening to me?
There it goes. We did it.
Nate Klein (0:23.397)
down.
Andrew Saunders (0:27.074)
Yeah, sorry about that. ⁓ Apparently the button doesn't work if Ben's not here. I don't know. That's, that's, welcome into the Dad Verb podcast. You've got Andrew and Nate today. ⁓ Ben ⁓ is destroying the sick check remotely ⁓ and he is out ⁓ and Momma, unfortunately, or fortunately for him, I guess you could say, had a lunch, his opening day for his venue that he and his wife own. So he is,
Nate Klein (0:39.023)
What's that?
Nate Klein (0:42.555)
⁓ You ⁓
Nate Klein (0:55.759)
big time in.
Andrew Saunders (0:57.260)
Yeah, he has had a great day from what I can tell, but he is very busy on recording day. So ⁓ unavailable for this chat, but we have got a fun little topic here. Today's, yeah, ⁓ it'll be interesting. We have to, it's going to be a fine line. We're negotiating this today. ⁓ We're going to be talking about how do you protect your kids ⁓ from all of the political rhetoric and nonsense that is happening in modern America?
Nate Klein (1:9.883)
Very exciting.
Andrew Saunders (1:28.858)
But before we get into that hot button topic where Nate and I will start throwing things at each other remotely just for fun, we need to do a sick check that Ben already ruined. So, Nate, you good? You sick? You, you, you,
Nate Klein (1:34.107)
⁓ Just fun. ⁓
Yeah.
I mean, ⁓ we, we are in the stage of decent right now. Everyone's still attending class ⁓ and daycare and work. ⁓ So we've got ⁓ sniffles, ⁓ but nothing that we're keeping them out for. So.
Andrew Saunders (1:47.630)
All right.
Andrew Saunders (1:56.430)
⁓ I love it when the bar is ⁓ 99 degree temperature and no runny noses. That's our, that's our... ⁓ All right, fair enough. ⁓ We are also fine and healthy and happy honky-dory over here. ⁓ we're... ⁓ Even the newbie, he has officially lost his umbilical cord. ⁓ All of his post-being born daddy's choice wounds have healed successfully. ⁓
Nate Klein (2:2.107)
⁓ That's right. ⁓ We're
Nate Klein (2:9.093)
Nice. ⁓ Even newbie.
Andrew Saunders (2:25.334)
For those of you who just interpreted my obfuscation of that decision, I'm sure we'll do a whole podcast about that at some point. Yeah, yeah, no, it'll be a good one. It was a big debate for me and ⁓ our primary care doctor, my wife, Sobe, is also our family physician. ⁓ He and I kinda had some debate and ⁓ he made some really good points and I was like, I'm gonna think about it. Like, I'm seriously gonna think about it. I thought I had my mind made up.
Nate Klein (2:30.875)
It's a real thing.
I could join in for that too. ⁓
Andrew Saunders (2:53.750)
He made some pretty good points. I spent another 48 hours on it. ⁓ He's a really good guy and I respect him and I'm actually working on getting him on the podcast. So ⁓ I'm not going to ruin his name because it is amazing, ⁓ but I know he's been listening because I've been harassing him about it. So ⁓ that's a plug. You're now expected. People know you exist. ⁓ Yeah. ⁓ So I'm sure he will get on here. He's a really great guy. We really appreciate him. ⁓
Nate Klein (2:55.791)
Those doctors. ⁓ I tell you ⁓
Nate Klein (3:15.650)
know.
Andrew Saunders (3:22.476)
And then a little plug for next week. don't remember if, I don't know if you followed this in the chat, ⁓ but we are going to have a former secret service member to Michelle Obama ⁓ on the podcast. ⁓ Probably not. ⁓ We're going to record the episode ⁓ next week, I believe. So it'll probably be the week of the 24th. I think his episode will be launching. ⁓ If we can get all the logistics arranged.
Nate Klein (3:31.963)
kind of a big deal.
Andrew Saunders (3:49.837)
We talked to his people today and he ⁓ has people. He's big enough, has people. It's not just us. ⁓ I am your people. ⁓
Nate Klein (3:52.430)
It's people. We got people. I need to get people. Yeah, I need to get people. ⁓ I got four kids that are my people. ⁓
Andrew Saunders (4:1.294)
⁓ Yeah ⁓ And they don't book appointments well, right? Yeah, ⁓ they don't take phone calls like they're very good at sending the people away, Yeah, ⁓ so hopefully we're gonna get him on ⁓ I don't want to give away his name in case ⁓ it ⁓ Doesn't happen. Yeah. Well, I mean we'll probably we'll promote it next week assuming he agrees and we can schedule a time and date ⁓ And we're actually probably gonna do a multi-part series with him
Nate Klein (4:5.211)
They do not.
Nate Klein (4:10.629)
Yes, ⁓ facts.
Nate Klein (4:19.536)
secret.
Andrew Saunders (4:31.212)
because he has a very interesting background and like yourself, he has some unique parenting situations that we're going to talk about. So ⁓ just promote, promos to keep coming back, keep listening. ⁓ And we're really bad at this. So I'm going to plug it right now. Don't forget to subscribe, tell your friends, like, ⁓ get us on social media. Yeah. We're just trying to always reach more new people. We do read the comments. ⁓ I read one the other day, somebody would like us to talk about healthcare in America.
Nate Klein (4:37.551)
Love it.
Andrew Saunders (5:1.006)
⁓ So I think that'll be a good conversation. We'll get that one on the books here in the next few weeks to talk about how having a baby in the American healthcare system is ⁓ woefully entertaining and ⁓ the way they bill you is just amazing and what you can do to get them back just for fun. ⁓ So ⁓ here's a fun one. I realized that I signed up for the family plan.
Nate Klein (5:12.315)
Woof.
Andrew Saunders (5:28.942)
for hospital indemnity insurance. So my brand new baby boy is technically covered from the moment he's born for hospital indemnity. So his first night in the hospital gets me paid. So we're gonna see what that works out. And if they're like, no, no, 30 days.
Nate Klein (5:39.873)
Let's go. ⁓ I used to work for a supplemental insurance company. So I get that. I get that whole fun game. This is good time.
Andrew Saunders (5:51.843)
We're gonna see if they pay it out. ⁓ I have registered him awaiting in a social security number once I get that, but I did get the baby receipt. So state of Iowa, ⁓ pretty quick. I got the baby and the receipt. Yeah, yeah. ⁓ It says no refunds right on the receipt. It's really weird. ⁓ Yeah. ⁓ Anyway, all right. ⁓ We're just avoiding the topic at this point. ⁓ Let's get into it. So this came up because a very dear friend of mine sent me a message this evening.
Nate Klein (5:58.881)
And, ⁓ and you got the baby. That's pretty important.
Nate Klein (6:6.233)
No givebacks, no givebacks.
Nate Klein (6:11.931)
⁓ We are.
Andrew Saunders (6:19.210)
And it was a speech given by a senator ⁓ at a famous institution. I'm not going to say which one. I'm not going to say which speech. We're not talking about politics. ⁓ We're not talking about political things. We are talking about how politics affects us. ⁓ And ⁓ it really kind of triggered me because ⁓ he's a very intellectual guy. Like I knew him from a military intelligence unit. That's where we met. I'm a very intellectual guy. ⁓ And
And it really struck me that we were, he was getting worked up. I was getting worked up and it was all about the rhetoric we were using. And we were not having a conversation anymore. We were just parroting bad rhetoric and we weren't, ⁓ yeah. ⁓ And we weren't talking about it and we were just going to these weird extremes. ⁓ And so I think given today's climate, right, ⁓ I just want to know you've got six kids, right? Five kids, six kids, four.
It feels like six when I was there. ⁓ Yeah. Your wife thinks it's six. Yeah. All right. Why do I think you have six kids? I don't I don't know where that popped into my head. ⁓ Well, it's probably that when I was at your house filming the thing for your daughter's book, ⁓ there were six kids running around and that's where. Yeah. But the point is your eldest, ⁓ your eldest two are starting to be able to hear this stuff. It's on the news. It's on their social media.
Nate Klein (7:18.683)
But I count as one, so it's like five. Yeah. Plus a dog, yes. Cause the dog too. ⁓ We're not, we're not starting that rumor. ⁓
Nate Klein (7:35.575)
you added the two.
Nate Klein (7:45.330)
yeah, they ask a lot of questions.
Andrew Saunders (7:47.385)
They're asking questions, right? ⁓ And ⁓ I have a different problem. My kids are little parrots. ⁓ And so we have to be careful about what we say because even within our immediate family, there are differing, ⁓ not our immediate family, even my extended family, my sister, my mom and dad, my cousins, ⁓ the people we socialize with who are family, there are differing political opinions, right? And as adults, we have the social skills to kind of navigate those. ⁓
Nate Klein (8:17.753)
Most of us, ⁓
Andrew Saunders (8:18.548)
landmines. Okay, we at least know how to avoid the big ones, okay, ⁓ if we choose to implement that skill. But our kids don't. ⁓ And they, they do just repeat what we say as parents, right? And so, I mean, I'm to stop talking, because I feel like it's been 20 minutes now, and people are tired of hearing my voice. But Nate, what are the strategies you've been using with your eldest children to kind of help them understand the rhetoric they're hearing?
Nate Klein (8:32.506)
Yeah.
Andrew Saunders (8:48.014)
⁓ and the inflammatory nature of what it is, if that makes any sense.
Nate Klein (8:51.717)
Yeah. I, my wife loves watching like the evening news. ⁓ And if you, if you watch the evening news, it starts off with like, the world is on fire every single time. And I think that's it's the world is not always on fire sometimes literally and figuratively. What we have. ⁓ she, ⁓ she ⁓ is like obsessed with Mr. Stephanopoulos, ⁓ Michael Strahan and then
Andrew Saunders (8:56.600)
Okay.
Andrew Saunders (9:3.746)
Yes. ⁓
Andrew Saunders (9:9.038)
⁓ Does she have a favorite channel? Like I have a favorite.
Nate Klein (9:19.973)
David Muir in the evening. And so like, it's just the connection. I think it's Michael Strahan's hands actually that she loves the most that are all mangled, but it's, yeah.
Andrew Saunders (9:21.409)
Okay, all right.
Andrew Saunders (9:27.566)
⁓ Okay ⁓ I'm a News Nation fan right now. like ⁓ their ⁓ claim that they're unbiased is my current like, okay, I can listen to this.
Nate Klein (9:35.343)
Yeah.
Yeah, I think what we've talked about is like ⁓ leading with values ⁓ versus politics is something like we're trying to like instill. So like what is kindness? What is bravery? What is love? What is having fun? And those things that we talk about every day. And then it's just answering every question. Like they ask so many questions. And I think we as parents sometimes can get to the point of like, nah, that's, that's adult stuff. Like
Let's not talk about geopolitics. Let's not talk about tariffs. Let's not talk about loans. And, and it's like, no, let's, let's actually have this. If you are old enough to hear it, you're old enough to talk about it. I use chat GPT a lot to just say, how do I talk about XYZ topic with a 10 and nine year old? And sometimes that is really nice to be able to help me. But I think part of it is leading with values and then also like just modeling behavior. So every year.
when there's, ⁓ during the presidential cycle, if it's a Republican incumbent, I register as a Democrat. If it's a Democratic incumbent, I register as a Republican so that I can, yeah, a hundred percent. Well that, but that also, but I get to go to the primaries. So in Iowa, you get this chance early on to caucus or primary, and you get to hear and be a part of the process. ⁓ And I talked to my kids about that. Like, Hey, as an, as an independent, like I've voted every which way.
Andrew Saunders (10:44.191)
You change sides just to throw the numbers. I like it. ⁓ I like it.
Nate Klein (11:2.841)
I get to hear people's stories and try to think and that almost forces me to be involved in the process. And so talking with the kids about, know, this is, ⁓ I agree with a lot of things over here and some of the things over here. ⁓ And then how do we come together? And I think we were talking beforehand, like how do we, as adults, model behavior of we can disagree on something and not ⁓ walk away ⁓ just wanting to light everything on fire. ⁓ And that's kind of where we're at.
in society like these. ⁓ think people think everyone lives like on this side over here, where the majority of people like live like right in here. ⁓
Andrew Saunders (11:40.919)
Right, right. And I think that's the part ⁓ that I really struggle with as a parent, right? Because, ⁓ I mean, again, we're doing this social media thing, right? We're doing the podcast. So I'm there and I'm seeing it a lot just because of the nature of ⁓ what I'm trying to do ⁓ in my personal and professional life. ⁓ I work at a higher education institution. So I am ⁓
Nate Klein (11:47.257)
Yeah.
Nate Klein (12:7.525)
Yeah.
Andrew Saunders (12:9.048)
being bombarded with some of the stuff in the hallways by the students. There are faculty members who are ⁓ very passionate about certain topics, and they are expounding their beliefs ⁓ when possible, right? ⁓ And it does, in and outside the classroom, and that's been brought up, right? ⁓ We have actually had, so in the IT role, right? I know we've had to do things like pull up recordings.
Nate Klein (12:24.559)
both in and outside the classroom, probably.
Andrew Saunders (12:36.150)
and see about what was said and how that affects ⁓ the complaints that happen. And so ⁓ there is a ton of nuance that goes on in this topic all over the place. And I think you're right. think the majority of us ⁓ have started to get ostrich syndrome, where we're just sticking our heads in the sand and being like, let me know when it's time to take an action. And I'll pop my head up, figure out which side I agree with, ⁓ and I'll move in that direction. But until then, ⁓ like,
Nate Klein (13:2.810)
Yeah.
Andrew Saunders (13:4.246)
I want to be blind to all the, for lack of a better term, nonsense, right? ⁓ And I do not want the world to come back to me and say, you just said a killing was nonsense. No, I don't think that part is nonsense. What I think is nonsense is ⁓ all the rhetoric that comes after it. ⁓ All the blaming, all the shaming, all the... ⁓ It's just too much ⁓ for any one person to digest, right? And...
Nate Klein (13:9.445)
Yeah.
Nate Klein (13:31.756)
especially kids. Like when you talk about kids being like, we had an in-depth conversation with my second tonight about friends, ⁓ about a particular friend that is sometimes really not kind. ⁓ And we had an unpack, like, what does that look like when you disagree on something? ⁓ talking about disagreeing without demonization, right? And so that is like a microcosm of how do you help kids be prepared for what's out there in the big, ⁓ the big world is, is ⁓ like,
Andrew Saunders (13:33.761)
Yeah!
Andrew Saunders (13:59.172)
Right, I think scary world.
Nate Klein (14:1.581)
individual relationships first and then talking with them about, you can disagree with someone and you can walk away ⁓ and ⁓ you don't then have to go talk about that person to other people. ⁓ Like ⁓ I talked with you tomorrow, I get to go to the Capitol ⁓ and the people that I'm going to talk with, I disagree on a lot of things. ⁓ And this one particular thing, like I think we can find some common ground to help move things forward.
And I think if there were more opportunities for people to talk about where we could find some common ground. And so that's where I we try to talk about with our kids, Jenny and I talk to them about like, where can you come together to move something forward, ⁓ whether it's in your classroom or on the basketball court ⁓ or just even in between siblings, ⁓ which is sometimes the most ⁓ difficult thing is understand how do we have some of those disagreements ⁓ amidst our discourse. And I think that's.
Andrew Saunders (14:47.042)
Right. Right.
Nate Klein (14:55.289)
That's interesting. You'll get to experience that over the next several years with your kids too. It'll be fun.
Andrew Saunders (14:58.241)
yeah, ⁓ I'm really excited. ⁓ Well, and ⁓ I mean, I think for me, one of the things that I've found frustrating is we are starting to get to that phase where friends are saying things that aren't nice, but they're not saying it because they're being mean. They're saying it because they're parroting someone ⁓ or and they are otherwise ignorant to what they're actually saying. ⁓ And so we're having to to deal with those kind of emotions, right?
Nate Klein (15:16.985)
Yeah.
Nate Klein (15:26.736)
Yeah.
Andrew Saunders (15:27.407)
⁓ It hasn't happened a lot, but it has come up like ⁓ So-and-so at preschool said this and it hurt my feelings. Okay, right We actually right now are having a lot of conversations about who is in control of our feelings ⁓ and ⁓ And I think that's something that ironically I'm having that conversation with my toddler and yet I feel like I could have it with ⁓ 90 % of the people I see on the news ⁓ like ⁓
Nate Klein (15:54.096)
Yeah.
Andrew Saunders (15:56.750)
And this is, it's a weird concept to grasp and maybe it's very Eastern Europe or Eastern religion conceptually, but ⁓ I think there is a fundamental truth in you are the only person responsible for your feelings. ⁓ And ⁓ anybody in the world can say ⁓ anything they want to you. And if you let it hurt your feelings, that's almost an act of self harm.
Nate Klein (16:12.645)
Yeah.
Andrew Saunders (16:25.571)
because you're taking their words, which have no pain, no power, no emotion for you whatsoever, ⁓ you're bringing them into yourself and then you're allowing them to do damage. ⁓ And if that's not self-sabotage at the fundamental level, ⁓ like, wow, right? ⁓
Nate Klein (16:41.945)
Yeah, I read. ⁓ So every morning there's two, two pages I read. read about stoicism, which is something that I've started to read over the last couple of years that talks about that. yeah. So like, how do we like ⁓ regulate ourselves? And yes, we could regulate ourselves, but there's also a point where some of the things that are happening that are impacting us, whether we want it to or not. And then there's also one about stoicism called the daily dad.
Andrew Saunders (16:52.697)
Ben's a big stoic guy. ⁓
Nate Klein (17:9.197)
And it talks about how as a parent or as a dad specifically, like how do we ⁓ meet and embrace our children amidst everything that's going on as well? Like how do we model that behavior? And I think a lot of it, ⁓ what I've heard on this podcast, and I think I would share with others is like, how do you model the behavior of what you hope to see in your kids? And if modeling the behavior that you want to see is like yelling at the TV ⁓ or not engaging in that dialogue, like that's, that's what they're going to do. And I, and I've been there.
I think we've all probably been there or arguing at the parent that maybe you have different political views with. ⁓ But then I think it goes back, like answer every question that you can in a way that is age appropriate. Right. ⁓ My sister or my my sister talks a lot with her kids. And then recently, my ⁓ daughters have been learning a lot and talking a lot about like historical events that had to do with politics or
Andrew Saunders (17:51.183)
⁓ Right. ⁓
Nate Klein (18:5.371)
9-11, like Ellery is huge in a 9-11 right now for some reason, read a book. ⁓ So asking questions about, what happened beforehand? What happened after? ⁓ And if I were to just say, just ⁓ go ask Alexa or go talk to a teacher, like then she's not going to come to me when some of these other big political things that are happening or things that are impacting her. So I would say, you know, challenging moms and dads out there, like be present, sit with the uncomfortable ⁓ comfortability.
Andrew Saunders (18:9.678)
Okay.
Nate Klein (18:34.037)
and then just be curious with your kids.
Andrew Saunders (18:36.666)
Well, and I think one of the things even that goes with be present is you have to do the work to educate yourself. Right. ⁓ And it's not fun. It's not. I'm not going to lie. ⁓ I really didn't care about some of the political topics that I have had to do extensive research on so I can have a reasonable discord with a three year old. She's four now with a four year old about it. Like but ⁓
Nate Klein (18:43.109)
Yeah.
Andrew Saunders (19:6.306)
Unfortunately for me, these topics come up around the other adults ⁓ that she is socializing with and and she is hearing it and then asking questions, right? ⁓ And and it is your right as your as a parent to indoctrinate your child into whatever political beliefs you want, right? I'm never going to stand ⁓ up and say you can't teach a kid that. But it's also your responsibility to teach them how to do that intellectually and with
Nate Klein (19:35.003)
us.
Andrew Saunders (19:36.154)
good information and not just on an emotional belief system that isn't grounded in reality, right? ⁓ And I know some people might get upset about that language, but there's a difference ⁓ in my opinion between the Bible says this,
And this is the law, right? ⁓ I can believe ⁓ whatever I want, but I still have to act within the confines of the current law. And my beliefs and the law may not align, but that doesn't mean that I get to go attack everyone who acts within the confines of the law because they don't align with my beliefs, right? And I have to raise my children the same way. They have to understand that ⁓ what I or we believe
Isn't the same as what the law does or does not allow right ⁓ and ⁓ And it's so hard, right? ⁓ It's so hard, especially when you're in small communities or closed communities Like ⁓ our girls are my my daughter right now is going to a Catholic preschool Right. ⁓ She has brought home three crosses two rosaries and one crucifix and we're not even halfway through the school year ⁓ and
Nate Klein (20:35.215)
Man, that's so real. And it is so hard.
Andrew Saunders (21:0.183)
And to be fair, right, I was raised Catholic. I understand they're just, for lack of a better term, party favors that they give out ⁓ at school to children, right? But it's not something that our family has chosen to participate in from a belief structure. And so I've struggled to explain why I'm taking those things from them because I am not letting them mistreat objects that another religion finds as sacred.
They're not going to play with a rosary as a necklace because that's ⁓ inappropriate for me to allow my aunt, who is very Catholic, to see my child running around with a rosary around her neck as her necklace. I understand that. And so I'm making the decision to make sure it's not treated as a toy, even though it's not the belief that I hold. ⁓ It's respect. And that nuance is so hard to instill in a child ⁓ because
Nate Klein (21:37.893)
Yeah.
Andrew Saunders (21:57.041)
You don't have the reasoning capability until you're a teenager and sometimes even an adult to get that level of nuance. we have to do it. And I don't know, we've veered off in this weird, weird area.
Nate Klein (22:10.235)
No, ⁓ think that's what's so interesting about this particular time and politics and ⁓ the landscape is that that's all interconnected now. ⁓ I don't know about when you grew up, but when I grew up, we didn't talk about this stuff at the dinner table. And even when the news came on, I wasn't necessarily asking those questions, at least from what I can remember. And I think what my parents taught me was not necessarily ⁓ what to believe, but how to think.
Andrew Saunders (22:20.185)
Mm-hmm.
Nate Klein (22:38.453)
or not what to think, but how to think. And I think ⁓ that's part of the opportunity as parents, like we get to challenge our kids to just think. And they disagree with us on so many things, ⁓ right? ⁓ What ⁓ TV show and what other things? And I think sometimes we get, yeah, ⁓ right, yes. mean, Blippi is a thing, but I would love to transition to something else at some point in time with my three-year-old. ⁓ And yes.
Andrew Saunders (22:50.512)
Right, right. Well, ⁓
Andrew Saunders (22:55.054)
what music we can listen to in the car.
Andrew Saunders (23:2.468)
Right, right. I have daddy music time and then we have kid music time. And since daddy's driving, he's in control of the radio. So when I do kid music time, it's a gift. Like it's ⁓ yeah.
Nate Klein (23:7.611)
We do it in every other.
Yeah. ⁓
Yeah. Well, to your point, like just over the last couple of days, ⁓ Ellery has asked like, Hey, does about God, like we've, I've grown up Catholic and are raising our kids that way. And, and she was asking, like, does everyone believe that? And I said, ⁓ no, not everyone is going to believe that what we talk about here. And I think that's, that goes back to what we kind of centered this conversation on is not everyone is going to believe what you believe. Not everyone is going to believe what we believe in this house.
And then how do we have a conversation and allow others and not just allow, but celebrate others differences. And I think we've, we've gotten away. And I talked a lot about this when I was in higher ed about we like move from the spectrum of like acknowledge, you know, pacify, acknowledge, ⁓ recognize, and then celebrate. And we, if we are not in this group over here, we don't celebrate that. ⁓ And we can like, we can.
Andrew Saunders (24:8.464)
⁓ We haven't even, most of those steps aren't even there. We're basically recognizing and dogmatizing. Like, yeah, yeah. I'm not even gonna acknowledge that you said that. I'm just gonna blame you for saying it. Like, ⁓ right? And that's it. ⁓
Nate Klein (24:11.963)
⁓ like here. That's ⁓ acknowledgement. Yes, acknowledge. ⁓
⁓ Yep. ⁓ And that's the challenge for us as parents is to figure out like, how do we instill that when we've probably got some deep core values stuck right here that it's like, dang it's like, I could have modeled that differently.
Andrew Saunders (24:33.006)
Yeah. No, ⁓ I know for a fact that a lot of my core ⁓ moral beliefs are very Christian. They're very Catholic Christian. ⁓ And I have had to justify them intellectually over the years so that I can wrap my brain around how they logically and reasonably fit within my moral and intellectual ideas of reality now.
And they're not just, well, that's because Father Bill said so, right? ⁓ And ⁓ that took a lot, like that was a good part of my teens and twenties was ⁓ how do I justify these things that I've held true for decades now, right? But they're not actually true because of science or they're not true. They're true because an authority told me and now I have to justify them so I can articulate a thought properly, right? ⁓
⁓ And maybe that's the part that we're actually talking about, right? We're not talking about ⁓ shielding your kids from Senator number 42's ⁓ rhetorical statement. teaching them how to, ⁓ we have to find the tools to teach them how to analyze those statements in a way that they can understand what was said and how it was said and even why it was said, if you can get that deep, before they respond, right?
Nate Klein (25:37.115)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Saunders (26:0.374)
And we're so reactionary now ⁓ that that's, ⁓ it's very weird.
Nate Klein (26:3.631)
Yeah. I, I talk about, I do like an improv session sometimes with a leadership group. talk and we talk about this concept of future thought prevents current action. Like, so when, when we're in a debate, whether it's in politics or with our kids, whatever, like we're thinking about what we're going to respond with based on our values and our lived experiences versus the present action is like ⁓ listening. ⁓ And if we can teach that, ⁓
then ⁓ maybe that future thought is like, need to listen first and maybe the person just wants us to hear it. And I know I struggle with that from a marriage perspective, but as parents, like... ⁓
Andrew Saunders (26:42.948)
That's, that's, ⁓ look guys, if there's one lesson you get 90 % of happy wife, happy life, ⁓ she just wants you to listen to this whole story and not fix it. Yeah, just listen. Don't analyze, don't interrupt, just listen. Don't fix it.
Nate Klein (26:49.339)
⁓ Just listen. Just listen. Yeah.
Nate Klein (26:56.793)
Yeah. And I think that's part of this dialogue at the national and even in the house level is like, sometimes if people want to have a political discussion, ⁓ they're not necessarily trying to turn you. They just want to speak their piece. ⁓ And if we can take a moment to try to figure out like, okay, where can I, where can I find some agreement? And at the end of the day, there's enough polarizing things out there that ⁓ I, cannot find any agreement. And at least I've listened to what you had to say. And I think that's.
How do we humanize people? And I think that's at the core of what we're trying to do as parents is humanize people, ⁓ even if we disagree completely with what they have going on.
Andrew Saunders (27:35.630)
Right. You don't have to like my ideas, but that doesn't mean you get to physically attack me because you don't like my ideas. Right. Like. And that and that's that's a very big risk we currently are facing in this world economy status. It's very odd that we've hit that phase. ⁓
Nate Klein (27:46.075)
⁓ Yeah.
Nate Klein (27:53.136)
Yeah, because our kids are watching the adults and we're not doing a good job.
Andrew Saunders (27:56.110)
Yeah. Yeah. I mean.
Well, had to, this is utterly ridiculous, but ⁓ I played video games in front of my kids their entire lives, right? My daughter was watching the news ⁓ and asked what game I was playing. Because the guy on the screen ⁓ looked like the character for the video game I was playing, right? Now, the next question is, Andrew, why were you playing?
Nate Klein (28:18.139)
How is the
Andrew Saunders (28:27.781)
combat-based games in front of a three-year-old. Different conversation, completely fair question and assessment. ⁓ On the other hand.
Nate Klein (28:30.573)
Fair. That's another podcast. Different podcasts.
Andrew Saunders (28:39.939)
It's, ⁓ how do you handle that? Like, that was such a weird conversation to have with a four-year-old because she doesn't have the intellectual understanding, the context, the ability to get that, well, that person ⁓ is ⁓ a policeman or a law enforcement officer and they are doing their job and these other people are mad about ⁓ it. ⁓ she's asking questions, again.
Nate Klein (28:50.083)
context. ⁓
Andrew Saunders (29:8.141)
Andrew's fault for playing certain games. He's like, well, why doesn't he just shoot them? Right? Because, because ⁓ what does Andrew do in the game? He pulls the trigger and they go away and we move on with our day. Right? And so we have to have that conversation like, well, daddy was playing a game and in the game, no one get hurt. And it's fake and it's make believe it's how you can throw your baby across the room when you're mad at her. And it's not a problem, but if you throw your little brother, you're going to get a lot of trouble. Right? And so ⁓ like,
Nate Klein (29:16.603)
shoot some.
Nate Klein (29:26.895)
Yeah, it's like utopia.
Andrew Saunders (29:37.006)
She's starting to grasp the make-believe reality concept, ⁓ but she still hasn't figured out that not everything on the TV is real, right? ⁓ And ⁓ we're getting to that point. So I read something recently that I didn't even know. ⁓ Children, until they're four or five, don't distinguish between live action and cartoons in movies. And so if you ask them if Moana, the animated cartoon,
Nate Klein (29:39.888)
Yeah.
Nate Klein (29:46.330)
Yeah.
Andrew Saunders (30:4.963)
is a real person, they will treat it the same ⁓ as Miss Rachel, right? Or another, ⁓ yeah, ⁓ they don't have that distinction. And it's like, well, that changes ⁓ drastically how you interact with ⁓ your kids, right? ⁓ But it also changes the content you can show them. Because if they don't make that distinction, then Bluey ⁓ and what's his name? Bandit.
Nate Klein (30:10.765)
Interesting.
Nate Klein (30:23.897)
Yeah.
Andrew Saunders (30:34.341)
Being a good father is actually really good representation of what an adult male father should be acting like, even if he's a dog and you're like, they're just watching cartoons, but they're not conceptuallyizing it that way. Right. ⁓ And the philosopher in me goes, it's amazing that a three-year-old can understand Plato's allegory of the cave and identify a father figure, whether he's a dog or an actual person. ⁓ Right, but they don't know that they're doing that.
Nate Klein (30:44.091)
They're making that one-to-one.
Nate Klein (30:58.693)
See
Andrew Saunders (31:3.449)
they are and it's absolutely amazing from a ⁓ like psychological research standpoint. ⁓ Anyway.
Nate Klein (31:9.147)
Well, and it gets back to that discussion of like age appropriate truth. Like when, when we get to be part of the filter and we try not to be a bias filter, but we get to be that filter when they're asking those curious questions of like, what is this age appropriate truth that we can bring to them and then build on it as they get older and then allow them to explore as they go as well.
Andrew Saunders (31:29.233)
⁓ I'm ⁓ and this comes back to why my kids were watching what would people would call violent video games is ⁓ I Do not hide things from my children. They have seen our rated movies. They have seen violent video games. They have seen ⁓ I'm a they've probably seen nudity in film at this point. I don't know if like ⁓ it's not like I made him watch strip tease or anything, but like there there might have been like Top Gun, right probably had a sex scene in it
Nate Klein (31:54.095)
Fair. Fair distinction.
Andrew Saunders (31:59.346)
⁓ The new one, not the old one. I don't think they've seen the old one. ⁓ my point being is we're not hiding anything from my kids in that way. And so when they ask the questions, they get the answer. ⁓ And my daughter has even started asking for the short answer. ⁓ No, it's funny because so like tonight, ⁓ she she asked, ⁓ she pointed at the clouds and she said those clouds, there's a storm coming. And I was like, No, sweetheart, that those are just gray clouds.
the sky's pretty clear, there's no storms. She's like, well, why are they gray? And I said, well, ⁓ they're not gray, they're usually white, but it's because of how sunlight diffracts. And she goes, is that the long answer? And I said, no, that's the short answer. ⁓ And it was, ⁓ but she was, she's starting to grasp like the layered nuance of multiple clouds become black, right? Or the thicker the cloud. And so ⁓ I answer questions.
Nate Klein (32:41.605)
Yeah.
Nate Klein (32:50.181)
Yep. Yep.
Andrew Saunders (32:56.393)
to the best of my ability in what I would refer to as scientific truth or fact or information, right? And yes, I have bias because I'm a normal human being and I'm putting that in there. And I don't even know I'm doing it. ⁓ Yeah. But ⁓ we're trying to answer the questions as realistic and literally. And so what was really interesting for me was after ⁓ the gentleman was on the screen in his ⁓ police regalia, she asked the question.
Nate Klein (33:6.127)
Yep, every human does. Unconsciously biased. ⁓
Andrew Saunders (33:24.187)
She asked why, she accepted my answer. And then the next time I was playing the video game, she's like, is that the news? I said, no, this is the game, right? And so she's starting to make those distinctions ⁓ and she's asking the questions and she's moving on, right? And ⁓ I think the part that we all as parents can understand is when you lie to your kids about stuff like that, for ⁓ somehow they pick on a...
They pick onto it and they ask weird follow-up questions that trap you in these weird logic loops. ⁓ And you're like, ⁓ I can't get out of this without like, yes, Santa's real and the reindeer can fly, right? ⁓ And so you just kind of have to decide which truth you're going with. We're not monsters. haven't told her Santa isn't real yet. ⁓ We're still maintaining the myth and the illusion, but ⁓ I think it's short-lived. I don't think she'll make it to six without.
Nate Klein (33:55.398)
Yep. Yeah. ⁓ You can't get out of it.
Nate Klein (34:3.492)
Yeah.
Nate Klein (34:15.899)
That sounds like a good podcast for the future too.
Andrew Saunders (34:21.339)
coming to the realization that Santa's not a person. ⁓
Nate Klein (34:25.371)
⁓ Magic is alive for us still, so we'll see. Yeah. Well, I think this has been really good because I think it ⁓ is ⁓ the time of season where we're going to have more of these ⁓ just commercials and conversations and everything coming up. And so I think as long as people are able to couch their values ⁓ and talk to their kids about what that is, get curious about things and then...
Andrew Saunders (34:27.907)
Yeah, you still got it? All right.
That is a fun one.
Nate Klein (34:52.219)
⁓ challenging their own curiosity by modeling that behavior. think that's where we try to center ourselves in and ⁓ ask people to think about where do they fall in that too.
Andrew Saunders (35:3.843)
It's great advice. And I don't remember who quoted it. And I'm not going to even get the quote right. But the paraphrasing is, ⁓ the greatest teacher of my life was my children. ⁓ Because ⁓ they ask the questions you're afraid to ask. And they don't even know ⁓ you're afraid to ask them. And just by answering them honestly and truthfully, ⁓ you learn things about yourself and about others. ⁓ And it's an amazing.
Resource at your hands as an adult around children. You don't have to be a parent just being around children you get that benefit and They are they are and the the only caveat I would give to everybody out there is ⁓ I I really don't care what your political beliefs are. I don't care where you stand on all the issues, right? But if you're indoctrinating your children into your ideologies without giving them the tools to think
Nate Klein (35:37.883)
⁓ Yeah. Great little mirrors.
Andrew Saunders (35:59.686)
through those ideologies while you're doing it, ⁓ you are doing more harm to them in the long run than help. And ⁓ they're not going to figure it out until they're in their 30s, and then they're going to be livid. And some ⁓ therapist is going to get rich off them. So ⁓ keep that industry alive, but be aware of what you're doing, right? mean. ⁓
Nate Klein (36:6.105)
Yeah. ⁓
Nate Klein (36:10.959)
Yeah, just, yeah. ⁓
Yeah. ⁓ I would just challenge people like just think the ⁓ small amount of time that we spend with our kids, ⁓ they're spending even more time on the playground with someone else that has grown up in a different household. ⁓ And how do we be cognizant that what we're saying and what we're modeling ⁓ shows kindness, shows bravery, shows ⁓ people centered on values because
Sometimes at that age, they're not able to make that distinction. And my dad or my mom are right about everything. And then if I talk about it in the ⁓ gaga ball pit, this other person's wrong and it's going to go down. ⁓
Andrew Saunders (36:57.967)
Yeah, then you got toddlers and blows in the ball pit and that's just no good for anybody. ⁓ Right, ⁓ Yep. Nobody's got time for that. That's just.
Nate Klein (37:1.531)
You don't have time for that. Then you got notes coming home from the teachers.
Nate Klein (37:8.619)
Nobody got time for that.
Andrew Saunders (37:11.249)
Preschool teachers and their notes. Am I wrong? Am I wrong?
Nate Klein (37:13.371)
⁓ Yes, it's great. ⁓
Andrew Saunders (37:16.657)
Do your, it's complete tangent, but does your school ever stop begging for money? Because I don't think like a week has gone by where they haven't been like, can we have more money for X, Y, and Z? oh my God, it's, it's, man, I tell you what, there's a fundraiser every week. There's a donation project. It's like, who, who?
Nate Klein (37:31.835)
We're good.
Nate Klein (37:42.363)
So I'm gonna give a shout out to the Benton community that I happened to be on the board for, so I think that's good. But no, we're good. Public school has been really good for the kids.
Andrew Saunders (37:45.510)
⁓ all right. ⁓
Andrew Saunders (37:52.731)
What I just learned is he's the one sending the email so he's not on the email list. That's what I just learned. Yeah, yeah, ⁓ yeah. ⁓ He clicked unsubscribe. He's not forced in as a parent, yeah. All right, fair. No, ⁓ that's fair. There are days when I just wanna email the principal and be like, just raise tuition. Please just raise tuition. Like stop begging me for money and make the bill higher. ⁓
Nate Klein (37:56.653)
That's right. I've removed myself from the email distro. That's right. ⁓
Mm-hmm.
Nate Klein (38:15.413)
No more nickel and dime. Yes. ⁓ Yes.
Andrew Saunders (38:19.622)
I'm giving you the same amount either way. One way just gets written off on my taxes. The other way you have to send me a letter at the end of the year. Like what's... ⁓ Yeah, exactly. Save the 49 cents and just do it upfront. I don't know if I've told this story, but that's a funny one. ⁓ So this year for preschool, ⁓ I got the list of all the school supplies, right? And I was shopping for crayons and they were eight bucks a pack for the crayons. And I went...
Nate Klein (38:25.531)
⁓ Save on the postage.
Andrew Saunders (38:48.940)
Man, this is ridiculous. So I looked up how much they were in bulk. Like if I wanted to buy a case of these crayons, right? They were $25 for ⁓ a 300 color, like crayon box with like eight colors, right? So I could either gotten three packs of eight or 300 total crayons. So.
I bought all the school supplies for a 16-person preschool class, ⁓ and it cost me less than one month's tuition at the school, to which my immediate thought was, ⁓ why can't they just raise everybody's tuition by that much divided by the 10 months we're in the year, and we're never gonna have a conversation about me buying crayons again? ⁓ But that logic just doesn't work, and I don't know why. ⁓ I don't... ⁓ That's what you...
Nate Klein (39:41.179)
⁓ That's part of my visit to the Capitol tomorrow to talk about funding, ⁓ education funding. ⁓
Andrew Saunders (39:45.948)
Okay, well, this podcast will be live. You can scroll to this moment and be like, look, we're complaining about it in public already. ⁓
Nate Klein (39:51.099)
Perfect. We got a spreadsheet for you.
Andrew Saunders (39:56.019)
That'd be great. I'd appreciate that. So, all right. Well, let's call it quits. And ⁓ when your daughter wants to have a God debate with an atheist, ⁓ let me know. And we'll all go have coffee and hot chocolate and we can have that conversation.
Nate Klein (40:8.293)
Man, ⁓ she's so curious. She'll go to FiveWise with you it'll be great. And I think it's awesome. ⁓ That's so much fun. Yeah. Yeah.
Andrew Saunders (40:13.828)
It's, it's fun. I like it. And, and I'm not even an atheist. I have a different link. I'm a spiritual person. No. ⁓ Anyway. All right. Well, ⁓ thanks again, everybody for listening. This is another wonderful episode of the dad verb podcast. ⁓ Reach out to us at dadverb.com. You can listen on all of your favorite podcast stations now that we have, ⁓ I recently had a syndicated on more. So we're doing a little work there.
Nate Klein (40:26.778)
Yeah.
Nate Klein (40:37.637)
Yeah.
Andrew Saunders (40:41.859)
don't forget to like and subscribe on YouTube ⁓ and ⁓ What else is out there we've got the discord community and
Nate Klein (40:47.897)
And yeah, and we'd love to hear their thoughts on like, what are things that you've done for this dialogue as well? Like getting curious is good, but what are some pro tips that you've seen that have helped with this engagement with kids too?
Andrew Saunders (40:53.504)
yeah.
Andrew Saunders (40:59.856)
Yeah, leave us those comments. ⁓ You can actually shoot us an email at podcast at dad verb calm now. ⁓ I'm not going to sit here and say we're going to respond to everyone. ⁓ But I will read them all. How's that? I will guarantee you I've read them all. They will come up at some point if they're nice ⁓ and complimentary. And we do read the comments. ⁓ I do reply to the comments when they're appropriate. ⁓ A lot of times you'll just get a little heart from dad verb podcast. That's me saying
Nate Klein (41:16.847)
We fancy. Yes.
Andrew Saunders (41:29.328)
Hey, I'm here, I read you, I acknowledge. ⁓ Yeah, lot of great things coming up. We got a little bit more on the adoption episode. I've got a couple more interviews ⁓ to do there lined up. ⁓ Yeah. All good. Have a good one. Peace, everybody.
Nate Klein (41:44.121)
All good, All good. All right. Thanks, y'all. See ya.
Andrew Saunders (41:52.391)
the stop buttons behind my camera. There we go.
