Benjamin Brown (0:10.510)
Hello everybody and welcome into another episode of the DadVerb podcast. I'm your host, one of your hosts, Ben. We've also got mom or Andrew Saunders and Nate. So we've got four hosts today. We're going to be discussing a couple of different things, but ⁓ we're going to start with a tweet that is getting a lot of attention out there ⁓ from a user called J Murphy, Justin Murphy. We're going to have a little discussion about what he said about some, ⁓
seems like some struggles that he's having as a dad. ⁓ And we just want to talk through it, kind of talk through some opinions and thoughts around ⁓ what he shared out, kind of how we feel as dads ⁓ and just have a little discussion around that. But before we dive into our topic for the week, number one, I want to give everybody a reminder. If you're listening to us on Apple, Spotify, it doesn't matter where.
We want this podcast to reach as many dads as possible. want to help as many dads as possible with real dad conversations. So give us a five star rating, leave us a review, ask us a question. We'd be happy to use that as a subject for an upcoming discussion. And then as always, let's yeah, tell your friends, send up smoke signals. But we are going to do our sick check as we do every week and see who is.
Andrew Saunders (1:15.384)
Tell your friends. Don't forget to tell your friends. ⁓ Yeah.
Nate Klein (1:19.061)
along.
Benjamin Brown (1:26.506)
surviving out there. So, Mommar, let's start with you.
Muamer (1:29.540)
Is this because I always bring us down and start us off on a bad note? Is that why we started with me?
Nate Klein (1:31.851)
Thanks
Benjamin Brown (1:32.757)
Might as well.
Andrew Saunders (1:33.528)
I mean, if somebody's gonna ruin it this week. ⁓
Muamer (1:36.583)
Hey, you know what? ⁓ Thankfully, everyone's in the clear.
Benjamin Brown (1:41.448)
Awesome. Saunders.
Andrew Saunders (1:42.094)
All right.
Yeah, I've got no ⁓ sick humans. ⁓ Sent the wife to ⁓ urgent care kind of on Saturday for Braxton Hicks, but other than that, ⁓ not much going on. So I don't think that counts as being sick. That's just part of the parasitic process we all live through. Yeah. ⁓
Benjamin Brown (2:2.061)
No.
Part of the deal. Nate, how about you? How's the family?
Nate Klein (2:8.267)
I'll tell you, last time I bragged about being clear and then less than a week later, I went five for six on Influence A, which was nice. But currently we're one for six and spiked to 101 temperature this morning. So my youngest daughter is staying home today and tomorrow. And what's really sad is she's supposed to receive the trophy for the fantasy football league that she won tomorrow night. And so she's.
Andrew Saunders (2:14.902)
⁓
Muamer (2:15.406)
Mmm.
Benjamin Brown (2:15.414)
⁓
Muamer (2:23.157)
man.
Andrew Saunders (2:36.095)
⁓ man.
Benjamin Brown (2:36.595)
wow.
Nate Klein (2:38.239)
She's bummin'. ⁓ Bummin'. It's hard.
Andrew Saunders (2:40.376)
hurting hard on that one. ⁓
Benjamin Brown (2:40.910)
That's awful. All right, so we're one down out of four. ⁓ Everybody's good in our house. Hopefully it stays that way. My son's ⁓ got a cough, it's sort of a he's got ⁓ he's had like, ⁓ I don't know what to call it. I basically like mild asthma ever since he was a really little kid. So every time we get into winter time, if he gets any sort of us upper respiratory anything, he just gets this like recurring cough that just goes and goes and goes for weeks at a time. So
He's working his way through that mostly at bedtime. other than that, it seems like everybody's pretty good other than we are just tired. I don't know what it is about these last couple of weeks. I don't know if it's like the news cycle or just general stress or but like, man, the first four weeks of 2016 have been or 2016 God 2026. I'm a decade off.
Nate Klein (3:25.227)
⁓ That's real.
Andrew Saunders (3:33.230)
⁓ That's some wish- wishful thinking there, yeah.
Nate Klein (3:33.727)
Good throw- good throwback. One decade throwback.
Benjamin Brown (3:35.854)
If that tells you where I am, the first four weeks of 2026 have been brutal.
Muamer (3:36.015)
He's
You know what? I'm about to, we're about to see Ben post that like 2016 throwback trend on, I don't know if you guys have seen that on social media. says post a picture of me from 2016. That's what we're about to see. That's what's on Ben's mind right now.
Nate Klein (3:45.867)
⁓ Yes. ⁓
Benjamin Brown (3:47.741)
Yeah.
Benjamin Brown (3:51.502)
⁓ I think I had a beard at that point still.
Andrew Saunders (3:54.639)
I mean, I've been, are we gonna harken back to like, you know, mankini bodybuilder beard oiled up like. ⁓
Nate Klein (3:55.019)
guys.
Benjamin Brown (4:0.640)
I, you keep, you keep thinking that I was a bodybuilder. I was never a bodybuilder. I never wore a mankini. I did have to wear a singlet. I did have to wear a singlet, but never a mankini. was never on stage. ⁓ It really is. You've really been going on that for a while. I'm starting to get concerned. All right. ⁓
Muamer (4:3.950)
power lifter.
Andrew Saunders (4:5.068)
Power lifter. That's right. That's right. You had the ⁓ singlet. That's right.
It's just my own personal Freudian dream, and it's... ⁓
Nate Klein (4:15.787)
⁓ Sounds like you've been holding that for a bit.
Andrew Saunders (4:20.170)
I I know I always I do every time it's powerlifting and I always think bodybuilder. don't know.
Benjamin Brown (4:26.990)
Close enough. All right. So let's jump into today's topic. So I'm to read off ⁓ a little bit of this tweet. So it's like four paragraphs. And apparently this thing has like 19 million views. Let's ⁓ see. 7000 comments. Yeah. Yeah. You put this up January 3rd ⁓ and it's sort of interesting, right? Like his perspective on ⁓
Muamer (4:41.924)
and counting.
Andrew Saunders (4:42.894)
in 12 days.
Benjamin Brown (4:54.328)
how he's dealing with his kids. I'll read off the first two paragraphs and then we'll summarize a little bit. ⁓ So Justin says, am I just a monster? Never a good way to start a tweet. ⁓ It's been four years since I became a father and I'm beginning to fear for my soul. The truth is I just don't like being around kids for very long. Historically, this is not uncommon among fathers, but today it feels almost illegal. It's causing me a lot of confusion and anguish.
The ideal amount of time and this is where it gets kind of interesting. The ideal amount of time I would like to spend playing with my kids is probably about 70 to 140 minutes a week. It's a very specific time frame. Roughly 10 minutes each day, maybe twice a day taking breaks from work. My feelings of love toward them are perfectly strong, but if I have to watch them or entertain them for more than about 10 minutes, my blood starts to boil. I just want to be working or accomplishing something. I try to be grateful, but it doesn't work.
Nate Klein (5:33.756)
specific.
Benjamin Brown (5:52.015)
And then he kind of goes into a story about like a Saturday morning. It's sunny. It's warm drinking coffee. ⁓ Let's see. ⁓
Nate Klein (5:56.683)
Thank
Benjamin Brown (6:1.966)
So I conceded with a smile. I have no problem being kind and loving, yada, yada, yada. It was beautiful. We live in a picture, extra tree line, buck. Basically, he goes on to ⁓ describe that he has what he feels is a very nice life and a nice home and that he's accomplished a lot, but he feels guilty and absurdly ungrateful and ashamed ⁓ when he's like either playing or not playing with his kids.
⁓ I have all of this perspective rationally and I've been very patient and steadfast trying to digest it, but nothing fixes me emotionally. So ⁓ his sort of question is, am I a terrible person or is my feeling within a certain range of historically normal and it's modern parenting norms that are off? Whether it's my fault or not, I don't even care. I just want to figure this out. So in a way it sounds like he's asking for ⁓ thoughts, opinions, help, advice and ⁓
realistically, it sounds like he's having a hard time spending time with his kids, right? So I will say, so his kids sounds like he's, ⁓ I don't know if he has one kid or more than one. It's been four years since I became a father. So ⁓ we've we've kind of been chatting about this in our household too. ⁓ So I will say, ⁓ and Saunders, you can attest to this because you got another one on the way. ⁓
If you think if and I hate to say this, if you're a new father and you think that life is going to get easier as your kids get older, you are it is fundamentally untrue. ⁓ To be honest, I personally, my opinion, the infant stage, the sort of newborn stage, even with the sleeplessness and the ⁓ gassiness and being thrown up on and sort of learning all the new stuff around fatherhood.
Andrew Saunders (7:34.070)
Ha ⁓
Nate Klein (7:35.519)
That's funny. ⁓
Andrew Saunders (7:37.134)
You ⁓
Benjamin Brown (7:54.337)
I actually thought that was significantly easier than where we are today. ⁓ My kids are just about three and five. ⁓ It changes ⁓ very rapidly and they get harder. ⁓ Doesn't mean you don't love your kids, but we can all admit, I think, parenting is the hardest job we have ⁓ trying to raise good people.
Muamer (8:5.177)
.
Muamer (8:14.040)
you
Nate Klein (8:15.935)
Yeah. ⁓ It's full context. ⁓
Muamer (8:17.964)
Some people might not love their kids, but that's a different topic. ⁓
Benjamin Brown (8:21.558)
Yeah, yeah, some people may not love their children, but that's those are people who probably didn't want to be parents in the first place deep down. ⁓
Muamer (8:25.483)
Yeah. ⁓
Andrew Saunders (8:27.918)
⁓ I'm not even gonna say it gets harder, because I don't like I don't feel like it's harder. It just requires more ⁓ active attention. Right? It requires a lot more of my well, like, even when they were running, and they were nonverbal, that was at least something where I'm like, I only have to keep my eyes on you, my my verbal brain and my like, they can do other things, right? But like, I'm at the point where 30 seconds doesn't go by without a question.
Benjamin Brown (8:38.146)
Hmm.
Nate Klein (8:38.795)
⁓ movement. ⁓
Benjamin Brown (8:40.855)
Yeah.
Benjamin Brown (8:49.667)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Saunders (8:57.228)
Right? Like without a like, it's just it's a ⁓ it's a constant barrage of information gathering humans and ⁓ God bless them because I like we really try and answer truthfully and like today a great example of this and I know my three year old had no idea but but the cross the ⁓ when you're backing up and you get the alarm on your car the cross ⁓ what's it called? Yeah, rear collision ⁓ cross cross traffic alert. Yeah, yeah.
Benjamin Brown (8:57.526)
Mm Yeah.
Muamer (8:57.720)
Mm-hmm.
Muamer (9:4.972)
Yeah.
Benjamin Brown (9:10.029)
Mm-hmm.
Benjamin Brown (9:19.990)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, the rear collision alert.
Muamer (9:21.225)
rear rear collision or whatever. Rear cross rear cross traffic alert. Look at us.
Andrew Saunders (9:27.778)
And she's like, what was that? And I'm like, well, that's the cross traffic alert. That's what happens when a car drives perpendicular to us ⁓ behind us. ⁓ And I was like, I have to explain what perpendicular means. Okay, so perpendicular. So when we're driving vertically like this and a car goes horizontally like this behind us, that's perpendicular. ⁓ And like, yeah, and I was like 10 minutes into an explanation.
Nate Klein (9:37.450)
haha
Benjamin Brown (9:38.318)
Mm-hmm.
Benjamin Brown (9:41.816)
Yep.
Yeah, you gotta start breaking stuff down.
Muamer (9:47.520)
see, I think part of it is you white. Why are you using the word perpendicular with your kids? Just say it drove behind us. Yeah, that's not you, man. ⁓ Just ⁓ like I would have never said the word perpendicular to my three year old. ⁓
Nate Klein (9:53.621)
That's on you. ⁓ That's on you.
Andrew Saunders (9:54.595)
because I have an articulate three-year-old, okay? ⁓
Benjamin Brown (9:55.117)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that kind of you brought you brought that you brought that on yourself.
Andrew Saunders (10:2.671)
⁓ I hear you. I understand I'm doing some of this to myself, but ⁓ I also have a little three year old who's got like great diction and a two year old who's following her. ⁓ you know, ⁓ use the big words.
Benjamin Brown (10:2.788)
So.
Benjamin Brown (10:11.631)
Mm hmm. And I will say like kind of the second paragraph here when he says the ideal amount of time ⁓ I would like to spend playing with my kids is probably around 70 to 140 minutes a week. Right. So that's out of a week. ⁓ And yeah. Yeah. Right. 10 to 20 minutes a day. So ⁓
Nate Klein (10:14.185)
Yeah.
Andrew Saunders (10:27.341)
flowers.
Muamer (10:28.439)
10 to 20 minutes a day.
Muamer (10:35.084)
I mean, listen, ⁓ I get it. Not that I agree, but I get it because there are days where it's just like, I'm just going to take you to the grandparents house and here's their problem. Now you're loving problem. It's not, ⁓ but it's, ⁓ need a, I need a break. And I know it's hard because not everyone can do that. And so there's, think there's this like weird sense of pressure, but what's interesting is like the more I dug into Justin Murphy, and we were talking about this a little bit before we started the pod, ⁓ but the more I dug into him and like his background and what he does and like, ⁓
Benjamin Brown (10:38.435)
Yeah. Yeah.
Benjamin Brown (10:44.675)
Hmm?
Benjamin Brown (10:50.287)
Mm-hmm.
Muamer (11:4.472)
tried to put myself in his shoes to understand like, how's this guy gonna feel with almost 20 million views on this tweet about his parenting style? Honestly though, he seems like he might have a job, but he's also like self-publishing books. So like there's this aspect of self-employment where we've talked about on the pod too of like, when you are in like provider mode, your brain is like split elsewhere. And he talks about a little bit where it's like in the past, it was probably a little bit different.
Benjamin Brown (11:12.484)
Right.
Benjamin Brown (11:22.542)
Thank
Benjamin Brown (11:27.503)
All right.
Muamer (11:31.809)
But in my mind, it's like not necessarily hating your kids and only wanting to spend 10 to 20 minutes a day with them. Again, different episode, ⁓ but I feel like it's, I can get overwhelmed. can do all of these things, but at the same time too, if I am the provider, especially if I'm self-employed, like it's on me, right? Like I could be working and presenting a proposal. I could be doing so many other things. ⁓ And it's this weird like guilt and pressure of having to be like the bluey level dad type.
Benjamin Brown (11:39.331)
Thank you.
Nate Klein (11:43.765)
Mm-hmm.
Benjamin Brown (11:49.839)
Mm-hmm.
Muamer (12:1.079)
24 seven ⁓ knowing when to pause, when to turn it off for work and then trying to find a balance. Like it's, I think it is really, really hard in the age that we live in because I think we have, ⁓ this sounds terrible. People are going to roast me. was going to say, I think we have over-corrected in modern like fatherhood parenting, right? Cause there's this whole aspect of like millennial dads and this like generation have never been more present and that's good. And I'm not saying that should change, but I think there's like the work life balance hasn't changed either. So
Benjamin Brown (12:1.103)
Mm-hmm.
Nate Klein (12:15.467)
What?
Benjamin Brown (12:20.047)
Mm.
Benjamin Brown (12:25.411)
Thank you.
Benjamin Brown (12:30.927)
⁓ I mean, the real is we are more, we are more productive and have more demands for our attention. think there, think there's a couple things here because like we have ⁓ one, get the whole provider thing and you know, being self-employed and, and constantly thinking about work. ⁓ but ⁓ to me, it sits in the realm of ⁓ if I'm really busy.
Muamer (12:30.986)
we're still figuring it out.
Andrew Saunders (12:33.016)
Well, and
Muamer (12:40.121)
yeah.
Benjamin Brown (12:57.997)
because so ⁓ my wife and I, example, right? Like up until November, I was working full time and creating content. She works full time and runs a travel business. Plus we have all the kids activities and school and you know, our, have a kid in kindergarten, right? So that's waking up. If I wake up at 5 a.m., get him up at six, we're off to school by seven, drop the kids off, go to work, come back, pick them up by, you know, two o'clock.
And then from two until probably five, it's I'm solo parenting with my five year old until my wife gets home with our three year old. then ⁓ all chaos breaks loose until bedtime. And then it's more work until, you know, 11, 30, 12 o'clock at night. It does. It does get it's a grind, right? It is a you get burnt out both emotionally, mentally, as you said, Saunders answering questions all the time. But ⁓
Nate Klein (13:49.012)
work
Andrew Saunders (13:54.948)
Well, and there are days when you don't... Sorry, as I say...
Benjamin Brown (13:56.495)
⁓ Mentally, it's like, I ⁓ have to mentally prioritize ⁓ what really matters. So for me, I have to sit there and go, OK, what are my, and I call them like my non-negotiables, the things that no one else can do. No one else can spend time with my children like I can. My wife can't. ⁓ Nobody else can do that except me. Nobody else can spend time with my wife. ⁓
Like nobody else can be that family man except for me. That has to be a non-negotiable. And so if I'm sitting there and saying, okay, what are my priorities and earning is one of them, ⁓ but ⁓ raising good people ⁓ is number one, then I have to mentally prioritize that. And sort of when I restack everything, it makes it easier to ⁓ know that the time I'm spending with them is not
time wasted. ⁓ is time spent building a better family that is more capable, that is more resilient, kids that are more resilient, that are more well balanced, so that I don't have to spend time down the road managing that because I didn't spend time with that, right, fixing it.
Muamer (14:58.043)
Thank
Nate Klein (15:6.037)
So. ⁓
fixing that.
And that's the core of what this is about, right? ⁓ This, ⁓ I think you all probably intentionally called this podcast dad verb. Like this is a choice ⁓ to make an action. And, know, like I shared before, like I didn't think I'd necessarily have the choice to be a dad. And I think what he's talking about, we've all felt it, right? We've all felt like, Hey, I need to go on vacation with my wife to rekindle that, or I need to go have some solo time. And what I think.
Andrew Saunders (15:12.943)
⁓ or paying someone else to correct it.
Benjamin Brown (15:15.758)
Yeah.
Benjamin Brown (15:32.847)
you
Benjamin Brown (15:38.979)
Yeah.
Nate Klein (15:41.831)
I saw with his posts was like, I need to watch my kid. It's like, if you're the dad, it's not called babysitting. It's called being a parent. ⁓ And I think that's, ⁓ that's a conscious choice ⁓ that like my dad made to say, Hey, I'm to be involved. I'm going to be engaged at different levels. And for me, more than 10 minutes a day is probably necessary.
Benjamin Brown (15:49.657)
Mm-hmm.
Muamer (15:50.064)
Yeah.
Benjamin Brown (15:54.884)
Mm-hmm.
Muamer (16:4.489)
Yeah, and I guess Nate, that's super interesting point, like from your perspective, where you see this guy who has this family, and like, do you almost get like ⁓ angry a little bit? Like, dude, like I had to work so hard for this, like I didn't think I would be a dad. And you're like, you don't know what you have. Like, do you get that sense of feeling too, when you read something like this?
Nate Klein (16:24.863)
Yeah, ⁓ initial thought is like, yeah, like, hey, man, step it up. And then also like, I don't know what people are going through. And, and the, the parents, the birth fathers and the birth parents that our kids came from, like they had some heavy stuff and then they made a conscious choice. Like, this is not the priority in my life and I have to find something better for my kid. And it doesn't look like this post is like, he's at that point, but also
Muamer (16:41.534)
Yeah.
Benjamin Brown (16:42.305)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Nate Klein (16:52.767)
you read enough books about making time, ⁓ like there's never enough time until you make the time. ⁓ And so in theory, there's always the time. You just have to prioritize like Ben, like you were talking about, like prioritize what's important. ⁓
Andrew Saunders (16:58.094)
Right.
Muamer (16:58.113)
Yeah.
Muamer (17:6.485)
⁓ I don't think he's saying his kids aren't important. think there's a line in here too. Let me see if can pull it up. He literally says he would want to be doing something else, but it does seem work related. I'm trying to find the exact line while I'm speaking. ⁓ And so I think that's the interesting part because there's a ⁓ reply to this tweet where somebody said, ⁓
I had a similar kind of experience, but ⁓ I was financially given like the permission to not have to worry about this, right? Cause it also depends on your financial situation, your own situation at home. Like if this guy has to work 24 seven or like pull four tens or five tens or whatever it is, like that's, that's hard on dads. And that's, that's why, like, I totally get what Ben's saying on like wanting to make that choice. But at the same time, like
Benjamin Brown (17:43.395)
in it.
Benjamin Brown (17:53.110)
Mm-hmm.
Benjamin Brown (17:57.807)
Yeah.
Muamer (18:0.732)
I think the choice is also as you're working, as you're building, as you're doing all these things ⁓ in, in the mindset that I think individuals like this and that I've had the same thought too. It's like, I am building that future for my family, right? Like if you don't come from money, if you're trying to like build that future and that lifestyle that you want for your kids, like, yes, you're building a legacy through them, but you also want them to have the things that you didn't have. ⁓ And that's where it's this weird like balance of ⁓ not knowing what it is. And I don't think there's a,
Benjamin Brown (18:13.142)
Mm-hmm.
Muamer (18:30.704)
wrong answer or wrong perspective. Again, if you don't like your kids, that's probably wrong. That's a different conversation. ⁓ But like in this situation, like if you're trying to work, if you're trying to spend time, like the people who have both of the contradicting opinions of like go to therapy or I totally get it. ⁓ I think that ⁓ the good thing that I draw from all this is like the fact that we're talking about this. Could you imagine someone saying this in the ⁓ 90s or in the 80s? Like ⁓ it wouldn't have happened.
Benjamin Brown (18:37.487)
Mm-hmm.
Nate Klein (18:52.043)
Mm-hmm.
Benjamin Brown (18:52.686)
and
Muamer (18:57.812)
So I think the fact that somebody does feel comfortable enough to at least say like, yeah, exactly. Like, hey, like I'm struggling. Here's what I'm feeling. And again, people are going to be mean and that's what the internet does. But like the fact that there are people supporting him and saying, I think that's, that is probably the good thing of this of exactly like, yeah, like no one knows there's not, there's not a right answer here of like, you should do this and then do this. Like, I don't know, just talk about it. Like tell your spouse, tell your
Nate Klein (18:57.983)
Yeah.
Benjamin Brown (18:58.231)
Yeah, like I don't spend time with my kids. I don't change diapers.
Benjamin Brown (19:5.923)
Mm-hmm.
Nate Klein (19:13.663)
Yeah, it struck a chord with 19 million people. Yeah. ⁓
Benjamin Brown (19:15.791)
Thank
Andrew Saunders (19:16.975)
you
Muamer (19:26.206)
partner, tell whoever ⁓ and like that's where I think we as dads sometimes do a bad job of just compartmentalizing. I know ⁓ I'm still not great about it, ⁓ which is why the podcast and the dad group channel have been so therapeutic. ⁓ But like that's that's the whole part of this. Like the more that we talk about these things, the better I think we are in a mental state and then the better it is for our families too. I'll get off my soapbox now. Sorry, that was a long.
Benjamin Brown (19:34.275)
Mm-mm. ⁓ Mm-mm.
Benjamin Brown (19:50.413)
Yeah. ⁓
Andrew Saunders (19:50.769)
⁓ I actually took this in a very different direction. Because I first gave him credit that he says he only wants to play with his kid for about 10 minutes, twice a day. And then my brain went okay, but is he making dinner? Is he doing bedtime routines? Is he ⁓ is he still parenting other ways? And that's that's not brought up in kind of this context. ⁓ And there hasn't really been a lot of like,
Like when he's replying, it's like three word answers to people, right? He's not expounding on what this truly means for him in any way that I've noticed. But I read through this the first time after we got it. And I actually had a ton of sympathy for this guy because I think what we're looking at here ⁓ is ⁓ kind of the daddy blues. Like I think we got a guy who ⁓ really doesn't know how to connect to his kid. He's very depressed about it. And instead of
heading down the I need to ⁓ help get ⁓ get myself right and fix like my emotional imbalance that I have. He's just diving into work. And and that's kind of what I read from here is that anything that actually ⁓ gets to that gooey under layer of I might have to be truly emotionally attached to this person who's relying on me for everything. And if they leave, it will really hurt like ⁓
Muamer (21:19.730)
Thank you. ⁓
Andrew Saunders (21:19.810)
Again, I'm reading a ton into this, but for me, the subtext is very much like, if I don't stay the right amount of emotionally distant, that little child is going to hurt me. And that to me screams some kind of like bigger mental health thing that ⁓ I think he needs to address. And it's, it almost reads like a cry for help. Right.
Benjamin Brown (21:21.955)
Mm-hmm.
Muamer (21:29.426)
⁓ I mean.
Benjamin Brown (21:36.291)
Yeah. ⁓ And I mean, maybe there's, maybe there's some childhood trauma in there. Maybe there's some, you know, disconnect from, ⁓ or there could be a lot into it. And there's, there's, I just want to touch on, there's a really good book ⁓ called, I don't want to talk about it. ⁓ And it's about the way ⁓ men express depression. ⁓ And it's sort of this, this idea of hidden depression in, ⁓
in high performing men, Men who typically have like really successful careers. ⁓ And typically ⁓ in men, depression comes out as ⁓ rage or anger or distancing. Those are kind of like the three, like the two big buckets, right? Like either you're super angry or you like kind of fly off the handle. And that's not saying like you don't get mad at your kids. You don't, you know, raise your voice or I mean, it happens, right?
And I think that the big thing that we miss ⁓ is ⁓ in modern parenting, and I think we've all struggled with this or seen this, right, is this idea of, ⁓ I enough? Is what I'm doing and giving enough? ⁓ Because he does acknowledge in this tweet, like, I know I'm going to long for these days again when they're teenagers.
So he actively understands or seems to understand that he is ⁓ missing crucial time with his kids, but is unable to get over that sort of hump to say, this is the important thing and this is what I want to do and this is what I'm going to prioritize. So as you said, Saunders, mean, I think, ⁓ again, this is all just conjecture and assumption, right? But there is likely some sort of ⁓ hidden depression that is ⁓
Andrew Saunders (23:5.136)
⁓ Right.
Benjamin Brown (23:37.122)
I think really a big challenge for all of us as dads is like, the more we're one of the most productive societies that has ever existed in the history of humankind, right? And we are constantly bombarded
Nate Klein (23:51.435)
too productive. ⁓
Andrew Saunders (23:53.419)
to the
Benjamin Brown (23:55.757)
with notifications and emails and work and all these other things, and there is no escaping it. And so when you come home, play doesn't feel like play. Play can feel like an obligation. It's another thing that is taking your attention. But we have to make that conscious decision to say, where do I draw the line and disconnect from the things that are not truly important, or at least are not important in this present moment?
Muamer (24:10.063)
Yeah.
Benjamin Brown (24:22.691)
How do I disconnect from them, put them on the back burner, even for a few minutes, so that I can connect with the people who are gonna matter most, because someday, and this is the thing that I see in this message, is ⁓ someday those kids are gonna look back on this and go, my dad didn't ever spend any time with us. My dad didn't wanna be around us. And they will not want to be around him. Whether that happens consciously or subconsciously, they will distance from him because
they didn't get what they needed.
Andrew Saunders (24:53.777)
I mean, ⁓ it's.
Muamer (24:53.969)
So you know what's funny about that? He replied to the tweet a couple days after and said, I will always write honestly in public about anything I want. If you never write about anything that hurts or makes you look bad, then you're not a real writer and your judgments mean nothing to me. ⁓ He said, if I found my dad's writings from 20 years ago and they had honest stories about the highs and lows, just raw stuff where he wasn't trying to make himself look good, but just trying to understand fatherhood honestly and thoughtfully.
There's hardly anything that could make me respect him more. So he has an even different approach to you Ben where he's like, my kids will love this. ⁓ but I was, I was scrolling, trying to find it because somebody did ask him like, was his relationship with his dad good? And he goes on to say like, yeah, pretty good. No complaints. And so like it's, ⁓ it's unique. It's interesting. That's, ⁓ this goes like everyone's got their own opinion, but like Ben, your take was great. I totally agree. Like I couldn't, like, I don't know what my kids will say when they see.
Benjamin Brown (25:27.085)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Benjamin Brown (25:39.151)
Hmm.
Interesting.
Muamer (25:51.150)
the podcast or like the silly things that we do, ⁓ but.
Andrew Saunders (25:52.315)
What are you talking about? They're hitting teenagers. I'm taking this whole thing down. ⁓
Muamer (25:57.374)
Yeah. ⁓
Nate Klein (25:57.803)
⁓ You know, it's, you know, it's so crazy. Like, so today I had one of my biggest professional accomplishments, probably my life. And the first thing my kids do when I get home was dad, are you ready for, are you ready to do bedtime routine? No, they're like, are you ready for bedtime routine? They didn't say, Hey, how was that ribbon cutting events? Like, was it awesome? Or were legislators and everything? No, they, ⁓ they will maybe care someday, but there there's like, is dad going to read me two books tonight?
Muamer (26:1.124)
⁓
Andrew Saunders (26:11.074)
Ready for the podcast. ⁓
Benjamin Brown (26:13.059)
Yeah. ⁓
Benjamin Brown (26:18.637)
Yeah.
Benjamin Brown (26:24.111)
Mm-hmm.
Muamer (26:24.131)
Yeah.
Andrew Saunders (26:26.832)
⁓ So, by f-
Benjamin Brown (26:27.117)
No, they exist in the right now. They exist for themselves in the right now. And that's it. ⁓
Nate Klein (26:27.627)
And I think that's the moments. And that's, like you said, Ben, like when, when the garage door closes or you shut the door, that's, that's almost a mental thing that I have to continuously think through. Like there is work life balance is such an interesting term to me. don't think there's work. It's just life balance. Cause you can't turn either of them off, but it's like, how do I flip the switch and realize like these, these four under 10 year old kids are like,
Muamer (26:29.998)
Yep.
Benjamin Brown (26:47.727)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Saunders (26:49.456)
All
Nate Klein (26:56.501)
Dad's here now, let's eat, let's do this thing, let's play trouble until he can't play it anymore. ⁓ And putting that effort into it is a part of what you sign up for because being dad is a choice.
Benjamin Brown (26:58.595)
Mm-hmm.
Benjamin Brown (27:5.764)
Mm-hmm.
Benjamin Brown (27:10.361)
Yeah.
Andrew Saunders (27:11.980)
I I think one of the things ⁓ I really think we need to acknowledge here is that Justin has a PhD and has written two books in the last 10 years. I mean, I think he graduated in 2018, right? Like, the guy's ⁓ on it, right? He's obviously got some brains behind it. mean, ⁓ and ⁓ I ⁓ really do think he intellectually understands what's going on.
Muamer (27:22.447)
Yeah.
Benjamin Brown (27:33.710)
Mm.
Andrew Saunders (27:40.986)
And I think he's having that vulnerability courage moment, right? And ⁓ he's trying to figure out how to get through it. ⁓ Or to be validated, right? To have the community come back and be like, you're fine, dude. ⁓ You're there. You didn't run away. ⁓ Check the first box and let's grow, right? ⁓ But on the other hand, if I only played with my kid 10 minutes a day, I think they would be livid with me or distancing.
Nate Klein (27:49.791)
or to be validated by a community, ⁓
Benjamin Brown (27:52.013)
Yeah. Yep.
Andrew Saunders (28:9.657)
And I think that falls back to like, yeah. And if ⁓ it reminds me of cats in the cradle, the song, right? Because no, I'm, ⁓ right?
Nate Klein (28:10.059)
⁓ or after a period of time, like, yeah.
Benjamin Brown (28:10.432)
and
Mm-hmm.
Muamer (28:16.399)
⁓ I want to this connection. ⁓ No, I have. know exactly. I'm like, I'm trying to like, I'm like, how is he going to make this connection?
Nate Klein (28:18.667)
⁓ I'm ready for this. I'm ready for this.
Andrew Saunders (28:21.209)
You haven't heard cats in the cradle? ⁓
Nate Klein (28:24.125)
half and we're ready.
Andrew Saunders (28:26.773)
Right? No, no, no. So in the song, the dad never has time for the kid. And he goes through the entire kid's childhood saying, son, I'll get to you later. Son, I'll get to you later. Son, I'll get to you later. And then the son is an adult. And the dad is retired. And the dad has time. And he goes, son, let's just go fishing. And the son turns around and goes, I'll get to you when I can, dad. I have to work. I'm busy. And it's like this truly melancholy moment in this.
otherwise great song where the dad finally realized what he did to himself over the course of a child's lifetime, right? And ⁓ I think that for me is kind of the big like heartfelt, man, Justin, I hope I can help you in any way, even if it's just you listening to this, get to the point where you're like, I just need to spend more time, even if it hurts so that I'm not the dad 30 years from now in the retirement home where my kid's going, yeah.
Benjamin Brown (29:1.880)
Right.
Andrew Saunders (29:24.069)
the nurse will call me when you're dying and I'll show up for that moment, right? Because that's gotta suck if you're that dad.
Benjamin Brown (29:26.595)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, can't imagine that.
Muamer (29:32.213)
Yeah, it's, ⁓ Mike, my kids are like, anytime anyone that has to travel for work probably feels them like anytime I have to leave, like, I feel like my kids punish me because they value the quality time. It's like, they don't want to talk to me when I'm gone. They don't want to go on FaceTime. Like they'll, they'll be happy when I'm home, but they're like, no, you're not here. Like, ⁓
Benjamin Brown (29:43.245)
Hahaha. ⁓
Andrew Saunders (29:51.536)
My four year old's already manipulating me. I will drop her off at preschool. Go work my eight hour day. Come home, pick her up from grandma's house. We've been apart maybe nine hours. She's like, dad, I missed you. And it's like, ⁓ you're killing me, kid. We've been apart for nine hours and I spent the entire time figuring out how to feed you tomorrow. Like, what are you doing to me? ⁓
Muamer (29:53.953)
Yeah.
Nate Klein (30:5.735)
I miss, that's my favorite. ⁓ I ⁓ missed you.
Muamer (30:6.514)
Mm-hmm.
Benjamin Brown (30:9.549)
Mm-hmm.
Muamer (30:12.770)
My
Benjamin Brown (30:15.118)
Mm-hmm.
Muamer (30:15.405)
My oldest will preemptively like when he's going to go to grandma daycare, he will be like, daddy, you're going to miss me. I'm like, dude, it's like, of course, like, you gotta make me feel that you haven't even left yet.
Andrew Saunders (30:21.905)
⁓ Man little emotional manipulators, that's what we're raising. All right. Fair enough. Although ⁓ one of my
Nate Klein (30:22.473)
Yeah, we love you too. We love you.
Benjamin Brown (30:23.695)
Yep, of course I will.
Muamer (30:27.585)
Yeah. ⁓
Nate Klein (30:29.311)
Yes.
Benjamin Brown (30:29.687)
They know what they're doing. Well, awesome. I think this is a good discussion. I know we're coming up on our time for this episode. So ⁓ any final thoughts before we wrap it up?
Andrew Saunders (30:41.713)
⁓ If you wanna really see how kids perceive their fathers, ⁓ go watch YouTube videos ⁓ on the children for like, Linkin Park ⁓ or some of the Olympic athletes because ⁓ every one of these parents seems to catch the right moment where their teenage kids like, what do you mean you know how to do a backwards cartwheel on a balance beam? And then mom's like, yeah, go look me up on YouTube. Here's my 18 year old Olympic gold medal.
Muamer (30:54.989)
you
Andrew Saunders (31:10.813)
And the kids just like, you're my mom, right? Like those videos are becoming ubiquitous and they're all excellent, but I think it frames how your kids see you versus how the world sees you, right?
Benjamin Brown (31:13.216)
yeah.
Benjamin Brown (31:20.875)
Mm-hmm. There was an interview with Macaulay Culkin where he showed his kids Home Alone and they were like, hey, dad, they looked at a child, like a kid's ⁓ child childhood picture of him and then looked at the TV and they were like, hey, that kid looks like you. And he goes, yeah, it sure does. Sure. He was like, my kids haven't made the connection that I'm the kid in Home Alone yet.
Muamer (31:25.760)
Yeah.
Muamer (31:37.069)
I saw that.
Andrew Saunders (31:38.219)
Sure does. Yeah. ⁓ Go figure.
Muamer (31:43.297)
He said he's purposefully keeping up the charade, the ⁓ specialness there for. Yeah.
Nate Klein (31:43.563)
That's awesome.
Benjamin Brown (31:47.693)
Yeah, he's like, I'll just let it run as long as I can. That's all.
Nate Klein (31:48.181)
That's awesome.
Andrew Saunders (31:49.553)
Yeah, but I mean, but it's a very, if you can absorb it in right way, it's an interesting perspective to grasp, right? Because it teaches us all something, anyway.
Benjamin Brown (31:57.123)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Benjamin Brown (32:2.615)
Well, awesome, gentlemen. Good conversation. ⁓ As always, if you guys are out there and you're struggling with anything like this, ⁓ one of the most important things you can do is to not suffer in silence. Find a community of dads, whether that's on our Discord or ⁓ online somewhere, that you can talk with people. Talk to a therapist. I would encourage everybody to go to therapy if you can, even if you don't think there's anything going on with you, just having somebody.
to have an objective conversation with that can provide you some, whether it's validation or pathways or tools to deal with some of the constant stresses and demands of being a parent are gonna be helpful. ⁓ So that'll do it for this episode of the Dadford podcast. As always, please, on whatever platform you're listening on, go and give us a five star rating, leave us a review, leave us a comment or a question, and maybe it'll make it into the next episode. And we will see you all in the next one.
Peace.
Andrew Saunders (32:59.803)
Peace.
Muamer (32:59.850)
Peace.
Nate Klein (33:1.301)
See you. ⁓
